I see Trier being all about helplessness, esp. female helplessness.

If von Trier doesn't depress you, try Fassbinder.

Well, clearly the women in his films are all exploited, terribly, so the films are undeniably about that. But they go beyond that. In each case, the woman gets some sort of vindication. I see no need in providing a spoiler for Dogville for those who have not seen it. For those who have, the vindication of Grace is clear. In Dancer in the Dark, there is only one thing that is important to Selma above all else and that one thing is accomplished, although she makes the ultimate sacrifice. It's the same with Breaking the Waves. But in Breaking the Waves, Bess not only accomplishes her goal, but also gets the ultimate vindication, God's acknowledgement of her sacrifice.

I don't think these films are about helplessness. They are about the power of women to accomplish so much *despite* being the nigger of the world.

I don't seek to be depressed. I don't like *depressing* films but I do like *sad* films with a point, and I think that's what von Trier does.

mm, i thought it was mostly a traditional tragedy. it was the first movie i ever saw that i couldn't stop thinking about. i was so angry, i woke up for weeks trying to fix things. (i'm not very passive, wink.) those who write about him say his films are "emotional brutality".